並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%9B%A0%E6%9E%9C%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6%E5%AE%A4/%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%E6%9C%9F-%E5%9B%A0%E6%9E%9C%E7%9A%84%E6%89%BF%E6%93%94-w0-VYbug_E1/